Portfolio Intelligence podcast: tips for making college admissions officers say, "Wow"

This podcast is being brought to you by John Hancock Investment Management Distributors, LLC, member FINRA, SIPC. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers, are subject to change as market and other conditions warrant, and do not constitute investment advice or a recommendation regarding any specific product or security. There is no guarantee that any investment strategy discussed will be successful or achieve any particular level of results. Any economic or market performance information is historical and is not indicative of future results, and no forecasts are guaranteed. Investing involves risks, including the potential loss of principal.

John Hancock Investment Management is not affiliated with Nancy Steenson.

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John Bryson:

Hello and welcome to the Portfolio Intelligence podcast. I'm your host, John Bryson, head of investment consulting and education savings here at John Hancock Investment Management. Today is April 29th and we are on the verge of May. And as you may all know, May is 529 month. A 529 plan can help investment professionals stand out from the crowd. It can help attract net new assets and new referrals. It's an underutilized estate planning tool. It helps you connect with the next generation of clients. And most importantly, it can help students get to college. Another way to get to college is to wow the college admissions process. With that in mind, I've invited a popular guest back to the podcast, Nancy Steenson.

Nancy is a college admissions coach and graduate of Tufts University. She served on the Timberlane Regional School Board for six years and was chairperson for two of them. Nancy is passionate about education and has always advocated for strong academics in the public school system in order to prepare students for college. She believes that many students and parents underestimate the college admissions process and works with students to market themselves by sharing underutilized strategies that help them stand out from the thousands of other applicants. With her guidance, students have been accepted to very selective colleges and top programs in their field. Nancy, welcome to the podcast.

Nancy Steenson:

John, thank you so much for having me back.

John Bryson:

You got it. Hey, listen, this is all about how to wow the college admissions team. Let's start with some of the basics that I have. I have a 17-year old that is in the college process, and I have some personal questions that I think a lot of people can relate to. If a student has really strong marks, is it necessary to take the SAT or ACT anymore?

Nancy Steenson:

Well, you know, John, standardized testing is sort of the hottest topic right now in college admissions. So, you know, a few years ago, when we went through the pandemic and quarantine, everyone stopped requiring standardized tests simply because students could not sit for the test and therefore they couldn't submit a score they couldn't take. What we're seeing now, since then, is that some schools have gone back to requiring scores, test scores, although not many schools have.

And some schools are looking at it. If you send them, they're happy to see them. A very small number of schools won't look at them at all. But here's the trend. This year we saw a number of highly selective universities, including Ivy League, UT Austin, start requiring again. And what we're hearing is that they really want to make sure that the students they're admitting are prepared to do the work on campus, and they want to make sure they've got those fundamentals down. We're living in an era where many high schools don't rank. There's an enormous amount of grade inflation. We're starting to question the authenticity of students’ writing. And there has to be a way to sort of look at all the students across, you know, many, many, many different high schools and figure out which ones are going to be academically prepared for a particular institution.

Therefore, we're seeing some of the super selective colleges start requiring test scores again. And we're seeing at some institutions, students who submit scores are getting in at a higher rate than students who don't. In short, a great score—which is defined as on the high end of accepted students at a particular institution—a great score will back up a student's academics and will only add to the application.

And I encourage all students to try to get a test score, because if they decide to add a school that is requiring test scores to their list, they're going to be sorry they didn't take the test.

John Bryson:

Yeah, that makes sense. And I'll tell you right now, my 17-year old is not looking forward to it, but I think she will be happy when it's done. Certainly Mom and Dad will be, so certainly, as you mentioned, a couple things that I want to dig into. You mentioned grade inflation and writing skills. Let's start with grade inflation. Is a high GPA the ticket to impressing colleges?

Nancy Steenson:

You know, when I meet with families to work with students through the college admissions process, usually the first thing they tell me is, you know, and ‘Susie has a GPA of 3.7, 3.9, 4.9, you name it.’ Here's here's the thing: A GPA doesn't really mean a lot. And I'm going to explain why different high schools have different systems of calculated calculating GPA.

Sometimes it's a weighted GPA. You get a bump up if you've taken an honors or an AP class. Sometimes it's an unweighted GPA. Oftentimes, high schools include physical education and art and technology and electives into the GPA. There's no way a college can compare a GPA from one student in this high school to the GPA of another student in another high school.

Therefore, the vast majority of colleges recalculate a GPA based on their own algorithm. It's usually quite simple. It's most often they take the core academic subjects—English, math, science, social studies, and foreign language—and they take the unweighted grades. So, you know, an A is a 4.0 and a B is a 3.0, and a B plus is a 3.3. And they recalculate the academic unweighted GPA. So the GPA you see on the transcript doesn't really mean a lot to anyone. What they're looking for is, ‘What classes did you take? What classes were offered to you?’ Because they will see that as well when they get the school report from the guidance counselor, when the student applies. And then how do those two things compare? Did you take the hard classes that were offered? Did you shy away from the hard classes? Did you do well in the hard classes? Is there an upward trajectory from freshman year where maybe you were adjusting to high school? So those are the nuances and those are the things they're really looking for, as opposed to a hard number. That hard number is relatively meaningless.

John Bryson:

Now you mentioned upward trajectory. Getting you know, going to high school, getting in high school is a stressful time for students and parents. What happens if you have a poor upper grade in freshman year? Does that kind of doom you for life and totally mess up the process?

Nancy Steenson:

Do you remember what our parents used to say? It's going to be on your permanent record. You know, I never know. I never really knew what a permanent record was. But here, here's what I'll tell you. One poor grade freshman year rarely hurts a student. If a student is applying to the most selective universities in the world, yes, it will be looked at. And it could be a drawback for the vast majority. And I mean the vast majority of colleges and universities, it's very common, you know, for students to be adjusting, and there are ways to explain it. Now, a high school counselor can, in the recommendation letter, can talk about what was going on and sort of soften that a little bit.

And also on the common application, which is the platform that most colleges accept and that students are familiar with by the time they're applying to college. That platform, has it's the very, very last question in the whole application. It's considered the most underutilized space on the application. And it's, ‘What else do you want to tell us?’

It's the additional information section. And as I visit colleges—and you know, John, I visit about 50 colleges a year and talk to admissions officers—I often hear them tell us, ‘We wish people would use that section more. What do you want to tell us, that you haven't had a chance to tell us? What you want to explain?’ What more information can you give us to help us understand the context is useful. So if I have a student who got a poor grade freshman year and they've done very, very well since, we can usually explain that. And that's a great spot to do it right.

John Bryson:

That's a great way. We've talked before about having the colleges understand who you really are and take advantage of that space. That's great. Nancy, another thing you mentioned was writing skills, right? The new trend and a lot of the conversations I have on the investment side also bleeds into the college savings side. And that's, the impact of AI. With AI, does the essay really count to people? People, you know, can they see through AI? Like, how does that all work now?

Nancy Steenson:

How is it all working in college admissions? So we're all figuring that out in real time. Here's what I can tell you. The purpose of the essay on the college application is to hear the student’s voice. And I always tell my students, this is not academic writing. This is not what we used to call expository writing. It's what the kids call a five-paragraph essay.

It's nothing to do with that. It's using your voice to tell a story about yourself, to give them something about yourself that they might not see on the college application. As such, AI is useless here. Now, when I work with kids and they try to fool me, then I'm sure kids are doing it everywhere.

And they'll do something with AI. Obviously, you can tell in a second that this is computer-generated writing. Usually, AI, it's very detectable as computer-generated writing. It certainly doesn't tend to have a voice, which is a term we use in writing. So I tell my students, ‘You're really not fooling anyone. And your best bet is to use your own writing skills and your own voice, because that's what they want to hear.’

What we don't know is what's happening on the admissions side. If you send in something that smells an awful lot like computer-generated writing, at the very least you've lost a great opportunity to express yourself to these colleges. At the worst, I don't know, perhaps your application will not be reviewed so favorably because you didn't really follow the rules.

The big question is, ‘Are they using AI filters and and do those filters work?’ And from my opinion, I will tell you that I don't think it matters, because most people who read writing for a living can tell without a filter whether something is artificially generated or not.

So, students need to get out there and write, you know, their best work. They're not looking for perfect writing. They're not looking for something that the student might be capable of writing, ten years hence. They know that teenagers are doing the writing, and that's what they expect. So, you know, students don't need to be that intimidated. Now, that said, I am seeing students doing far less writing in school than previous generations.

It's a little bit surprising. I'm not really sure if it's a post-Covid thing, or if it would have happened without the pandemic. Kids are not as comfortable writing as they used to be. But regardless, they need to embrace it. And this is a great opportunity for them to tell colleges what they want to tell them.

John Bryson:

Yeah. Back to that voice. Make your voice be heard. If it's AI. That's not your voice. People can see through the bullet point scripts, right? I think that's good insight. So, another thing, you know, you mentioned trends and how things evolve over time. You know, I think you and I have talked before, when we were growing up, it was really important to be involved in as many things as possible, getting as many leadership roles as possible. Is that still the case? Is that what people should be focused on?

Nancy Steenson:

So extracurriculars matter in a college application; there's no question about it. And there's really, I would say, a sliding scale of how much they matter depending on what kind of college the student is applying to. Again, as with anything else, the super, super selectives are expecting more out of students than colleges that might be moderately selective. Flagship state universities, some of them just use a grade kind of algorithm. Sometimes with scores, and they really don't look too carefully at all of the activities. But I'll say this: What a student does not want to do is just join a lot of things. It used to be we wanted to see a well-rounded, you know, student. Well-rounded is not really part of this picture anymore. It's fine if a student signs up for a lot of clubs. But please don't sign up for a lot of clubs because you think it will impress colleges.

A lot of people are using the word spike, so they like to see a spike. Meaning what do you love? And did you spike with it? Did you do a lot with that one thing? So, if you're an athlete, you don't have to join student council because, you know, colleges like to see that. You can, if you'd like to join student council. But if you really love athletics, maybe you can do community service with small children or developmentally delayed people. There are all kinds of organizations that that do that. Top soccer is one that comes to mind. Perhaps you can get a part-time job as a ref or an umpire. There are opportunities within what you love, and that's what we like to see. Again, with the more selective colleges, they're looking for leadership and they're looking for students to have an impact on their community.

So, for those students who are looking to apply to some of the most selective colleges in the country, the the bar has gotten very, very high and the funnel is very narrow. And they really want to see what have you done for yourself, what kind of opportunities have you created for yourself and therefore having an impact on the greater community? Unfortunately, it's not enough to just be elected, you know, student body president for some of those institutions anymore.

John Bryson:

Yeah, we do some mentoring with some local colleges around here, and some of the students who we're talking to in high school started their own companies or their own charities. Is that the type of stuff that you're talking about?

Nancy Steenson:

It can be. But I will tell you quite honestly, John, it gets a little dicey because, you know, a well-connected parent starting this for the student is not authentic. And that happens a lot. And so I'm very, you know, I'm very careful with this and I'm very torn on this issue. We use the word passion project. Sometimes the parent puts it all together and puts the student's name on it, and that's very disingenuous. Sometimes the student does it themselves, but then the whole thing falls apart when they start college because it was just to get into college. So I know when I work with students, I really carefully talk with them about what do they want to do that will matter. This is not smoke and mirrors. It should never be smoke and mirrors.

John Bryson:

Were really good insights there. Thank you, Nancy. All right I got a couple more questions. I'm going to fire at you. Let's talk about the old process of college interviews. How much do they count nowadays?

Nancy Steenson:

All right, so I would put this in two camps for most colleges that offer interviews. And remember, many don't, but many do, so for colleges that offer interviews, it's usually just a form of demonstrated interest. It's a way of showing the college that you actually want to attend. So if a student has eight colleges on their list that they're thinking of applying to, they should go on every single one of those websites and find out if those colleges interview. Many of them will be doing that over Zoom.

So, you don't have to travel to the institution if you don't avail yourself of that opportunity and you don't interview with a college that offers interviews, they might think you don't really care. You're not that invested in going to that institution. You really had your eye on something else, and you run the risk of possibly not getting admitted because of the lack of showing interest. So interviews are really a great form of demonstrated interest. I tell my students, ‘It's not like a job interview. They're not interviewing 200 people to pick one. It's really just a hoop you have to jump through.’

It's very rare for a student to not get into a college because of the interview. They would have to be wildly inappropriate. It's very rare also for a student to get into college because of the interview. It's just one factor. Now, the exception to all of this would be some, again, the super selective colleges, specifically Ivy League. They have long had a tradition of engaging their alumni to interview students.

And that's not specifically just the Ivy League. I would add other elite institutions to that list. And, the sad fact is that those interviews don't matter at all. The colleges are using their alumni to interview students because they like to engage their alumni. They like their alumni to feel part of the process.

They like their alumni to feel wanted. And that might increase their donations. So it's, it's a bit of a ruse in my opinion. But the super selectives really, really don't care about that interview. It's a hoop that the students unfortunately have to jump through. But the alumni really are not in any position to be evaluating that candidate. And we all very much doubt how much that's looked at on the admissions side.

John Bryson:

Got it. Part of the process, part of the history, but not necessarily impactful. Yeah. So, you mentioned demonstrated interest. What other ways should students be thinking about, highlighting that so they stand out with the colleges they're focused on?

Nancy Steenson:

So this this notion of demonstrated interest has really become important in college admissions. Again, to define it, it's showing a college that you are interested. You're not just applying. You've actually engaged with the college or university. Perhaps you visited and did a tour and an information session. Perhaps you did a virtual information session. There's far more virtual programing through college admissions than there ever has been in the past.

Perhaps you had an interview. Perhaps you met with the college rep when they came to your high school or at a college fair. Also, John, their measuring once a student is in their CRM system, they're measuring how often they go on the website and where are they navigating on the website. They are measuring, when students get what they think a spam email from those colleges, they're measuring whether those emails are opened and whether students are clicking on the hyperlinks. So you don't have to do everything, but you have to do something. If you don't engage at all, colleges may think you're not interested.

And the exception to this would be, again, the super selective universities and colleges in this country. There may be 50 of them that couldn't care less how often you're on their website. They couldn't care less about any of that. They do not consider demonstrated interest in their admissions review, but most institutions do.

John Bryson:

Gotcha. Good to know. It can't hurt to show interest, certainly, in the colleges that you're most interested in. Nancy, my last question for you, because we are in the thick of this, we're doing the essay prep where we're, you know, getting ready for the SAT here at our house. When I say we it's really my wife and my daughter. I'm not doing any of that. But I might have to reach out for a letter of recommendation. Does that letter of recommendation count anymore?

Nancy Steenson:

So on the common application, there's a spot where you can upload a letter of recommendation from your school counselor, letters of recommendation from teachers, and then what we call for that other category—anybody else. For many, I would say most colleges and universities in this country, they require or will accept a letter from the school counselor. It's very, very customary for the school counselor to include one. Then, there are many institutions that require one and sometimes two academic teachers. And so yes, they matter. The other category, which would be a family friend, a coach, an employer. It's always amusing when a family says, ‘Well, we know Prince Harry. Do you think that would help? You know, I know the president.’ No, those don't help.

So really, what helps is an authentic letter from counselors and teachers who can say authentic things about the student because they know the student. If someone doesn't know the student, they're not going to write a helpful letter. So yes, they count, yes they matter.

And again, I know, I feel like I'm circling back to this on every question. But the more selective a college, the more they lean into that. So if you're looking at an Ivy League institution and everyone who applies, you know, has all A’s and, you know, half of them have cured cancer and they've started foundations and they have perfect SAT scores, and on and on and on. They really dig into those letters of recommendation to get a sense of who, among these students, is really, really interesting and interested in learning for learning’s sake? Who among all of these students has had an impact on their high school? Who of these students, do the teachers respect the most?

So, I would say for that category, that very tiny, tiny category of very elite institutions, it matters an enormous amount. For most colleges in this country, it matters some.

John Bryson:

But it's really impressive. It kind of it just goes back to how do you wow folks in the college admissions process, how do you stand out? And the more you can have your voice resonate throughout the process, the better. Hey, Nancy, like I said, we're in the thick of it here. It's always great to talk to you. I take away some great insights. So thanks so much for being on the show.

Nancy Steenson:

Thank you so much, John. It's always a pleasure.

John Bryson:

You got it. And folks, if you want to hear more, please subscribe to the Portfolio Intelligence podcast on iTunes or wherever you download your podcasts or visit our website jhinvestments.com. You can read our viewpoints on macro trends, portfolio construction, other business building ideas, college savings and much, much more. As always, thanks for listening to the show.